Mage Class

[iLeeeO]

1- First of all, this is not a topic about candy staff. Id like to make it clear, since they delete posts about that issue. That staff is gone, so bb.

2- For non-mage players: i dont own the forum, so ofc you are free to come and express your opinion, but if u came just to bother ppl trying to argue about the obvious unbalance in this game, pls dont put ur nose here, as u dont even play as mage (specially about 1 guy that always say blablabla in mage topics to make we look like nabs, and he is not a mage, but i wont say names).



We all agree that something is missing in many points, and I wont say anything about+9+10, cause after merge everyone will have their own cursed+9+10 too, so im not considering this.

1- Mages have low ac, low hp, and in this game they have low ap too. Melee damage system works in geometric progression (the more ap u have, ur damage is increased in %), while mage damage system is a simple progression (mp + damage+ staff. In other words, doesnt matter how much mp I have, my staff will always increase the same damage on my skills). Passion warriors even have a second advantage, when they use that ap skill, they lose about 300 ac but their resistences remain intact, so they make 2x + damage on me and i make the same on them). In every single game i played, mages have strong skills. That damage system provides + damage for warriors and rogues according to their current ap, thats so obivous, u can tell it by observing mage vs melee both with+7 make the same damage on each other, and when it is both with +10 melees do much more damage cause their skills increase x %.

2- We dont get the benefit of wolf, pathos glove atack (2% for all class), enchant weapon, red pot... Its ok, since we use magic atacks, not melee skills.... BUT: Skill Absolute Power increases "30" damage, and not 30% in pk (it only works fine on exp). So a blade with "hell blade" with red pot, enchant, str, wolf hit me 1k+ (considering i have buff and enchant too), while my damage cant increase a bit... thats not ok. I think our master 62 should work perfectly in pk, as melees can increase their atack and can use resist buffs too, while we can only increase the ac.

3- That master passive skill lvl 60 (bright dew? dunno the name), increases mana recover while u sit when ur mana is lower than 30%, thats useless, while melees have 50 all resist or 30% + ac.

4- Ppl from other classes come here and tell us to use a shield lol. If we wanted a shield since the begin, we would make a priest bro, it can provide much more support.




I think this is all valid arguments, cause once I read some mage skills didnt work good, not even mp in pk (now it works), cause the game would be unbalanced. Its unbalanced the way it is. Whats the point of being mage? Bring a shield along and tp ppl, while they insult u cause u tped too soon or too late?

If mp bonus now work in pk, developers can hear us. So I think we should agree with the absolute power thing too.


ZepekenoRETURNS.

[trip]

Hi All,

Firstly, I totally agree, and thanks for such a clear list of cogent and logical points relating to the game dynamics/programming/class-balance.

I would add:

5- Cursed Staffs have an ac penalty, for what is already a low ac class.

6- The vampiric flame skill was also neutered some time ago. It no longer does what is was designed to do.

7- Melee classes can use PUS ts scrolls in all pk zones to increase their combo rates. We can only use normal 'skeleton ts' which of course is only usable in invasion time.

I would also add that there is strong indirect statistical evidence that all of this amounts to a major class imbalance. In particular I am thinking of the fact that attack mages are so few now that those of us remaining feel like an endangered species. Back in the early days of KO, and for the first half a decade thereafter, you would see many full attack mage builds, 'paper mage' being the most famous example. Just by looking at the numbers it is clear that this is no longer the case.

The future? : Well, on the bright side; the developers do seem to have introduced a new offensive mage staff (Book of Wizdom) which will be great if it can ever be found and upgraded. This staff is a clear nod at the afore mentioned facts that offensive mages are currently very under-powered when compared relatively to other classes. Its stats can potentially be almost as high as the currently available cursed staff with added hp and no ac penalty. The reality, unfortunately, will probably be that this staff will only ever be acquirable by people who illegally buy gold bars, or play illegally.

On a personal note; it's sad to see that a series of unorthodox (to put it nicely O.o) business and development decisions seem to be leading to a game which is achieving only a fraction of it's potential; both in terms of game balance and, perhaps more importantly for some, in terms of revenues.

Kind Regards.

[MrStevil]

to start ..i played mage around 7 years and now im playing archer
i played all 3 subclasses > fire light ice
so i know mage class


now imagine everything u read with NORMAL items !
every class is totally diffrent solo or in group .

mage solo with" normal" items will loose most of the times because other classes attack much quicker and stronger ...with parasite or malice is 1 hit kill.
a group of mages...well u know...if there is good teamplay they can kill everything.

warrior solo... everything will go fine untill he get malice, debuff, subside etc etc makes him weak and he will have troubles to kill a worm ^^
warriors in group..are in my eyes to strong , most of them have 10 11 12 k hp and deal ALOT of close damage.
with a skilled priest in party your chanches for survival as a warrior are really high.

priests...well priest should be strong because they have to keep the party alive.
what i don't like on a priest character is a gab adamant +7 or higher.. this curse go off way to often and this should be reduced alot because it makes some priests close to immortal.
...so if the priest in your party have a gab adamant +7 and he knows how to play like a priest...your party will be twice as strong just because your priest is to hard to kill.

rouge class asas / archers

solo asas can deal out alot of damage in a short period of time... for solo pk this class is close to perfection because a rouge run faster, attack faster,they have stealth mode , can cure / minor themself or a party member .
a group of asassins take out anny target they want...i dont doubt that ^^
but lets say that u are the only asassin a group of warriors ... you will always be a target because your class is weaker with malice or debuff.

archers need some improvement on skills ... alot of skills are useless they also have the -def on cursed weapons.
abouth damage.. archers need to get as much dex as they can to deal out damage from far... but at the same time they will be easy killed because they have dex items instead of defense items.
a group of archers is pretty dangerous but dont even come close to the damage made by a group of mages.

------------------
now on topic
i agree that mages could use more HP adding to that the -defence on cursed weapons should be removed for every class
abouth damage i really think thats fine ... mages make more than enough damage when they are playing the FIRE class ...the casting of pilar skills have impact in a short period of time while ice / lightmages have skills that need to travel before impact
the damage for light and ice mages should be turned up ... they attack to weak, i know they have slow or stun effect but it is still to weak if u compare that with firemages
if the damage rate could be better balanced we would see alot more diffrent type of mages
it is sad to see that vampiric not absorb mp annymore..it is not fair compare to the subclass that can disable a player for 10 seconds or blink away when in trouble

once a mage can use krowaz armors they become strong
i have been lightmage for several years and once i could use krowaz armors my ...death / kill rate became " balanced "
i was able to tank rouges warriors etc...most of all the vs i made i have won .. but mostly when buffed ... im not talking abouth arena

so if u have read all what i wrote.... u might understand that every class have his issues
when something is changed it will always be bad for another class...

see it like timetravel
they say when u go back in time and kill a mosquito u could be destroying mankind at the same time

[Yahweh]

Thank you for opening this thread.... as a reward and for making the rules of the thread obvious I will sticky this for you as I feel the Mage class is one of the most controversial chars in the game and always a good discussion point

Please again, keep the Candy Cane staff issues OFF this thread and on topic.... any other class disrespecting this thread will be taking a vacation... how long will depend on your content

[FreakSusy]

A decent Krowaz gear in mages indeed makes them more tankier, but with low AC, low HP and with plenty MP (thats the point of being a flame mage), having krowaz nowadays does nothing when you are being attacked with rogue/ warrior with +10 or other illegal items. And believe me, I consider my gear to be a decent one, but I can be a 2-3 hit target from ONE single rogue, fully BUFFED. I know this discussion is not about the +10 items and illegal items, but I think it's important to make reference to this issue, just to explain how mages can be ultra easier to kill.

My point is, even with good gear, the difference between the HP from classes with lots of attack power and flames mages , goes easilly up to the double. And I usually say that, as a fire mage, it's really hard to mingle around the fight and to staff combo (doesn't even take 1k from someone) when we simply can't stay alive long enough.

I love playing fire mage, but I can relate when people say that nowadays mage class is down to TP and support.

[REGISS_]

A decent Krowaz gear in mages indeed makes them more tankier, but with low AC, low HP and with plenty MP (thats the point of being a flame mage), having krowaz nowadays does nothing when you are being attacked with rogue/ warrior with +10 or other illegal items. And believe me, I consider my gear to be a decent one, but I can be a 2-3 hit target from ONE single rogue, fully BUFFED. I know this discussion is not about the +10 items and illegal items, but I think it's important to make reference to this issue, just to explain how mages can be ultra easier to kill.

My point is, even with good gear, the difference between the HP from classes with lots of attack power and flames mages , goes easilly up to the double. And I usually say that, as a fire mage, it's really hard to mingle around the fight and to staff combo (doesn't even take 1k from someone) when we simply can't stay alive long enough.

I love playing fire mage, but I can relate when people say that nowadays mage class is down to TP and support.

well said, also i must admit that EUKO should have same CZ patch, since extra dmg from items bonus MP is a HUGE diffrance and change. Not mention the most important fire mage skill a.k.a Vampiric should be finally fixed.

[Estepario]

well talias helps a lot when fighting, can be really tricky tho when fighting at cz cause not everyone uses the same wep.

vampiric needs to be restored to what it was, draining mp and getting hp, that skill was atually helpful, and gave some balance when pking, could neutrilize a cp from a sin.

i still think the stunt/freeze rate should be increased, its kinda funny that a warrior has better % chances than a mage, and now with blunt working its quite annoying lol, and a bp regardless the items should be almost 100% rate on them.

but from all the issues of the magie, the real problem relies on the godess items around, thats what broke the balance.

[trip]

Hello All,

Firstly, thanks for all the contributions. This is turning out to be a very interesting thread!

Now, onto the topic....

Thank you for opening this thread.... as a reward and for making the rules of the thread obvious I will sticky this for you as I feel the Mage class is one of the most controversial chars in the game and always a good discussion point

Please again, keep the Candy Cane staff issues OFF this thread and on topic.... any other class disrespecting this thread will be taking a vacation... how long will depend on your content

Thank you sir for letting us have a space in which to talk about these issues. We all hope that some changes can be made to help re balance the offensive mage class, which at the moment is practically impossible to play.

well talias helps a lot when fighting, can be really tricky tho when fighting at cz cause not everyone uses the same wep.
vampiric needs to be restored to what it was, draining mp and getting hp, that skill was atually helpful, and gave some balance when pking, could neutrilize a cp from a sin.
i still think the stunt/freeze rate should be increased, its kinda funny that a warrior has better % chances than a mage, and now with blunt working its quite annoying lol, and a bp regardless the items should be almost 100% rate on them.
but from all the issues of the magie, the real problem relies on the godess items around, thats what broke the balance.

Yes, Talias may as you say help, but:
1. This has nothing to do with class balance as the other classes can also use talia, we should compare ‘like with like’
2. A good enemy will notice the damages and use 2x acid pots which make the talia useless.

I agree on the stun rates and the item balance (which mostly relates to how damages are calculated as explained earlier)

A decent Krowaz gear in mages indeed makes them more tankier, but with low AC, low HP and with plenty MP (thats the point of being a flame mage), having krowaz nowadays does nothing when you are being attacked with rogue/ warrior with +10 or other illegal items. And believe me, I consider my gear to be a decent one, but I can be a 2-3 hit target from ONE single rogue, fully BUFFED. I know this discussion is not about the +10 items and illegal items, but I think it's important to make reference to this issue, just to explain how mages can be ultra easier to kill.
My point is, even with good gear, the difference between the HP from classes with lots of attack power and flames mages , goes easilly up to the double. And I usually say that, as a fire mage, it's really hard to mingle around the fight and to staff combo (doesn't even take 1k from someone) when we simply can't stay alive long enough.
I love playing fire mage, but I can relate when people say that nowadays mage class is down to TP and support.

These are important issues as the mages damages are programmed using ‘simple progression’ and not ‘geometric progression’ as explained earlier. This means that if we compare +10 geared assassin with a +10 geared mage the difference is much more than a +8 mage and a +8 assassin, for example.

If we imagine a situation in which the class strengths and weaknesses were reversed (eg assassin was programmed like mage and vice versa) I doubt assassins would like to be told: “do your job, don’t attack, minor people and use cure pots only!”. Yes this is exactly the type of class limitation we are expected to ‘deal with’.

well said, also i must admit that EUKO should have same CZ patch, since extra dmg from items bonus MP is a HUGE diffrance and change. Not mention the most important fire mage skill a.k.a Vampiric should be finally fixed.

Actually, although mp bonus in usko does now ‘work’ in pk, the increase it gives is so small that it’s not really worth it, it doesn’t ‘work’ in the same way that str accessories work on a warrior, or dex on an assassin.

I will reply to MrStevil in a separate post as it's quite long.... post pending ^^

Thanks again all!

[trip]

to start ..i played mage around 7 years and now im playing archer
i played all 3 subclasses > fire light ice
so i know mage class


1. now imagine everything u read with NORMAL items !


2. every class is totally diffrent solo or in group .
mage solo with" normal" items will loose most of the times because other classes attack much quicker and stronger ...with parasite or malice is 1 hit kill.
a group of mages...well u know...if there is good teamplay they can kill everything.

warrior solo... everything will go fine untill he get malice, debuff, subside etc etc makes him weak and he will have troubles to kill a worm ^^
warriors in group..are in my eyes to strong , most of them have 10 11 12 k hp and deal ALOT of close damage.
with a skilled priest in party your chanches for survival as a warrior are really high.

priests...well priest should be strong because they have to keep the party alive.
what i don't like on a priest character is a gab adamant +7 or higher.. this curse go off way to often and this should be reduced alot because it makes some priests close to immortal.
...so if the priest in your party have a gab adamant +7 and he knows how to play like a priest...your party will be twice as strong just because your priest is to hard to kill.

3. rouge class asas / archers

solo asas can deal out alot of damage in a short period of time... for solo pk this class is close to perfection because a rouge run faster, attack faster,they have stealth mode , can cure / minor themself or a
party member .
a group of asassins take out anny target they want...i dont doubt that ^^
but lets say that u are the only asassin a group of warriors ... you will always be a target because your class is weaker with malice or debuff.

4. archers need some improvement on skills ... alot of skills are useless they also have the -def on cursed weapons.
abouth damage.. archers need to get as much dex as they can to deal out damage from far... but at the same time they will be easy killed because they have dex items instead of defense items.
a group of archers is pretty dangerous but dont even come close to the damage made by a group of mages.

------------------
5. now on topic
i agree that mages could use more HP adding to that the -defence on cursed weapons should be removed for every class
abouth damage i really think thats fine ... mages make more than enough damage when they are playing the FIRE class ...the casting of pilar skills have impact in a short period of time while ice / lightmages have
skills that need to travel before impact
the damage for light and ice mages should be turned up ... they attack to weak, i know they have slow or stun effect but it is still to weak if u compare that with firemages
if the damage rate could be better balanced we would see alot more diffrent type of mages
it is sad to see that vampiric not absorb mp annymore..it is not fair compare to the subclass that can disable a player for 10 seconds or blink away when in trouble

6. once a mage can use krowaz armors they become strong
i have been lightmage for several years and once i could use krowaz armors my ...death / kill rate became " balanced "
i was able to tank rouges warriors etc...most of all the vs i made i have won .. but mostly when buffed ... im not talking abouth arena

7. so if u have read all what i wrote.... u might understand that every class have his issues
when something is changed it will always be bad for another class...

8. see it like timetravel
they say when u go back in time and kill a mosquito u could be destroying mankind at the same time

Firstly, thanks for your comments, you have clearly put some thought into this. I agree with a lot of what you say, although there are certain elements of your ideas which I feel are wrong.

I am not sure how to easily quote sections of your text separately, so I have instead numbered your paragraphs and used the numbers below in my response:

1. If every class had ‘normal items’ we actually would probably be quite a balanced class. To be fair; we need to make comparisons based on the real server item conditions.

2. This is mostly true, but in a way irrelevant. We should compare real conditions, not artificial ‘ideal parties’. Most cz parties are mixed, if we compare a mixed party with an attack mage against a mixed party with another attack class (not a mage) then we can get closer to seeing the real game imbalance. Right now 90% of mages who are not support build are just considered ‘free np’ by the opposing mixed party. This was never meant to be!

3. Yes true, however the assassin can heal, minor, lightfeet and cure themselves, which makes them far less ‘free np’ than an attack mage in the same situation.

4. It is correct that in some way the archer class is also under balanced. I disagree that a ‘ful archer party’ is weak against a ‘full mage party’. Archers have a longer range with their strong attack skill than mages do with novas. This makes is pretty even as the mage party would have to use their long range skill vs the archers long range skill. I've always said the best counter to a full mage party is a full archer party, for this very reason.

5. Yes, I agree that the stun rates and other offensive or ‘half support’ mage sub-classes are also under-balanced. I also agree about the vampiric flame. I totally disagree about the damages being balanced for the fire attack class when compared to other classes. It is totally right if your comparison is based on ‘normal items’ but we have to look at real conditions. Normal items are really not part of these real conditions at the moment.

6. In 1v1 there is a fair bit of balance, I agree. But when you take into account the geometric progression of melee class damages and multiply this with the numbers in a party pk environment, then the balance is totally destroyed.

7. Again, I repeat, if it was just a case of one class weakness, but other classes with other weaknesses and that these ‘balance out’ then we would see many more attack mages. The reality is that a very small percentage of players now play attack mage. I think the reasons for this are pretty obvious, but I have played the class for about a decade now. This is just why this thread is very important so that others can understand a bit better.

8, Yes, or you could also save mankind from an apocalypse, it all depends which mosquito is killed!

Kind Regards

[obblin]

I think a way to really balance out the Mage class would be to eliminate the need for INT stats. Make the primary stat be MP which would increase a mages damage and mana pool. The secondary would be HP, which would allow you to wear armor and increase health pool. This would even out the class in a great way. Other classes, other then priests only have two stats that greatly benefit their class. This should be the same for mages.